In this episode of Relationship Radio, listen to an incredible story of a couple bringing their marriage back to life after it seemed hopeless.
Dr. Joe:
Often people read what we write on our website at MarriageHelper.com, and they hear all these great stories about people whose marriages have changed. But sometimes I think you just want to see these people. Are they real? What do they look like? Can we hear their voices? We have Karson and Ashley as our special guests today.
Ashley & Karson:
Hello. Hello.
Dr. Joe:
Just to jump into it, may I ask how did you guys first meet each other?
Karson:
We met without knowing, I guess technically. Before we’ve got a relationship or anything was just on Facebook through a church that I was pastoring, and she joined the Facebook page, and I just said, “Hi, welcome to the church’s Facebook page.” After I was going through my divorce, I found her on Christian mingle.
Dr. Joe:
Okay. What year would that have been or how many years ago?
Ashley:
That was in 2012.
Dr. Joe:
So, in the year 2012, after your divorce, you guys met each other. Then how did you develop your relationship? Were you in the same city?
Ashley:
We’re in the same city. We’re about five minutes apart, drive-wise. So, it worked out well.
Dr. Joe:
How long did you date before you got married?
Karson:
Officially I think it was really short.
Ashley:
It was one year.
Karson:
Before we got married? Yes. We were engaged six months and married six months later.
Dr. Joe:
From the time you first interacted, was it six months or a year before? I got confused.
Ashley:
It was a year from our first meetup.
Dr. Joe:
So, a year from that, you got married. How was marriage to begin with?
Ashley:
Rough.
Dr. Joe:
So, it was rough from the beginning? Why is that?
Karson:
I don’t think I have words to put to it before Marriage Helper. There were a lot of unspoken expectations. We didn’t know how each other worked exactly. I was trying to do things. I wanted a particular response, whether it was cleaning the house or having dinner ready. I wasn’t getting the reaction from her that I wanted. Even though I didn’t tell her, “Hey, this is what I’m doing it or why I’m doing it.” Some of those things.
Ashley:
Yeah. Just poor communication.
Dr. Joe:
Were you guys talking at all?
Karson:
Yes, we were talking. From the outside, most people wouldn’t have said that they thought it was bad or anything like that. We both had failed marriages and relationships before, so we just expected it to be better. It was like, “wait, it is a lot like the last one.”
Dr. Joe:
How long before you guys began to realize that you are having trouble more than normal?
Ashley:
I don’t know that I ever realized it for a while. For years I just thought that’s what everyone dealt with. Maybe the love story is not meant for me. Maybe this is just life. I need to be realistic and just be glad I have a good husband. That was my mindset.
Dr. Joe:
Okay. How were you thinking, Karson?
Karson:
It was pretty quick, probably two years in, I’d say. We had gotten into some fights, and some things got a little more intense that put me in a spot where I shut down. I just didn’t want to get that intense about anything ever again. I think for me, that was a moment that I shut down, but there were definitely times waking up where it was just how? Why? It’s just a matter of time until this is over.
Dr. Joe:
Am I hearing correctly here and correct me if I’m misinterpreting that because of the experiences each of you had in previous relationships that you basically carried those into this relationship so that you weren’t really understanding each other and almost either impossible expectations or no expectations whatsoever? One of the other, right?
Karson:
Yes.
Dr. Joe:
How long before you decided you needed to find some help?
Karson:
How many years was that? 2016? 2017?
Ashley:
Almost four.
Karson:
So we were four years in?
Ashley:
Yes.
Karson:
We were four years in when I had been going to counseling, and I’d been talking about our marriage and feelings I had for somebody else. I never acted on or anything, but I had. I just kept telling my counselor I’m miserable. She just kind of looked at me and said, “Well, you’re pretty much trapped, aren’t you?” I was like, “that’s not super helpful.” I was a pastor, and I felt like I was in a bad marriage.
I felt like, who do I go to? I’m the one people come to. So, there was a lot of that. Eventually, I had some burnout from church, and it led to a night out without Ashley that I told my feelings of that person that I had feelings for. That’s where your story made sense. I felt like it was very similar to some of the things you experienced pastoring. I started a 12-week affair, six of it secretly and six more kind of open.
Dr. Joe:
Open, meaning that your wife knew about it, or did other people know about it as well?
Ashley & Karson:
The whole world.
Dr. Joe:
Was that because you told her? Or was that because you got caught?
Karson:
We got caught. At that point, it was like; finally, we got caught. It was like a relief at that point. It was like, here’s the point now we move into whatever plan we had. So, that was how that happened.
Dr. Joe:
How long had this relationship been developing with this other person?
Karson:
About ten years.
Dr. Joe:
Oh, so it’s a long-term acquaintance, and then it finally developed into something more intense than that?
Karson:
Yes.
Dr. Joe:
So, six weeks in, you get caught. Do you guys split up at that point, or what happened when you got caught?
Karson:
No. Ashley wouldn’t give up on me as much as I wanted her to. It was just weird. I don’t know how to put it into terms. I was still living at home, saying I wasn’t talking to the other person, but everyone knew it was happening. Just that kind of game, I guess. That was how that worked.
Dr. Joe:
So, in that second six weeks, you still lived at home and still communicating with the other person. Were you still seeing her?
Karson:
Yeah.
Dr. Joe:
Okay. Ashley, did you know he was doing that? So what did you do?
Ashley:
Let’s see the right words. I controlled what I could. I couldn’t control him. I couldn’t stop him, or he would have just stopped when I asked him on the first day. So, I just controlled what I could, and that was where the “Save My Marriage” course and PIES just really helped me. I could only control myself.
Dr. Joe:
Let’s talk about that. At what point did you find a Marriage Helper?
Ashley:
About a week after, I found out about the affair.
Dr. Joe:
So, this is like seven weeks into the affair.
Ashley:
Yes.
Dr. Joe:
How did you find us, if I may ask?
Ashley:
I Googled exactly “how to save my marriage when the spouse wants out.”
Dr. Joe:
I’m assuming that led you to have one of our articles, podcast, or something.
Ashley:
Yes. It led me to an article that led me to the website, which led me to the Facebook group.
Dr. Joe:
Did you join the big Facebook group?
Ashley:
I did.
Dr. Joe:
For those who are listening or watching that particular Facebook group, we limit it to about 5,500 members. If we allowed everybody who wanted in, it would be 55,000 people easily, but we limit it to 5,500. I’m glad that you got in. The reason we limit it is not that we don’t care. We do. It’s just that’s as many as our admins can deal with, and it’s like, we can’t help people if we get beyond this. You found a big group, and you got into the big group. Did that help at all?
Ashley:
It helped a lot. I felt there was a community and support, but some of the members just kept referencing, “Oh, you can learn more about this in the course, or this is covered in detail.” Then I found out that there were special coaching calls included in the course. I was like, that’s really cool. It didn’t take me long to sign up for that.
Dr. Joe:
So, you signed up for the “SMM,” as we call it in-House. It’s the “Save My Marriage” online course. That was still the old course back then. We have a newer course now. The coaching calls she’s referring to are that people in that particular program, once a week, we put one of our coaches online, and people can type in all kinds of questions. Either he or she, our coach, will answer as many as they can in that hour. What were you hoping or expecting the “Save My Marriage” would do for you, Ashley?
Ashley:
I hoped it would help me figure out the best way to save my marriage. Logically, the teaching made sense. It was like the world would say, “Oh no. You’re mean to this person”, or “you make them jealous.” That just didn’t make sense to me. They’re like, “the easiest thing to do is just to stop doing what you were doing wrong.” So, I just knew the start there. I just kept saying, “as long as I do these things, it should work, right? If anything will, this will, I’m just going to do what they say because I’ve heard stories of people before me who’ve done the same things.” I’m really confident in other people’s stories.
Dr. Joe:
Other people’s stories about the course, is that what you’re saying?
Ashley:
Yes.
Dr. Joe:
So, you worked through all of the sessions. Did you dig into it deeply and do all the homework and all that kind of stuff?
Ashley:
I did everything. I had gratitude journals and PIES journals, and I printed out everything. I left my print-outs at work. I did it in secret.
Dr. Joe:
Karson didn’t know that you were doing this?
Ashley:
No. He had no idea.
Dr. Joe:
For those of us who may not know when we talk about things like PIES, it’s an acronym. It stands for physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. PIES, which kind of incompetence is the whole of a human being. So you’re doing these in secret. You don’t want Karson to know. Why didn’t you want Carson to know? I’m curious.
Ashley:
I didn’t want him to feel like it was some ploy.
Karson:
Or a project.
Ashley:
Or a trick or something that would just easily go away. Or the attitude, and I know he had it. It would be like, “Oh, now you care. Oh, now you’ll change.” So, you know, I didn’t want him to know what I was doing.
Dr. Joe:
How did going through the course material help?
Ashley:
You said, “how did it help? ” Oh, goodness. The most immediate, helpful thing for Karson and me was a “horseman” session in the course. It just talks about, in simple words, how to treat each other and treat other people. I took the assessment, and I think I cried for three hours. I’m like, “Oh my gosh, this is bad. No wonder he wants to leave. That’s how I felt.
Dr. Joe:
I’m sorry we made you cry. I apologize for that. Sometimes self-insight can be a little painful, right? Like, “Oh, wow. This is what we’re doing.” Karson, as she was going through this program, you didn’t know it at all, but were you seeing any changes?
Karson:
Yes, I saw changes immediately. I think even kind of before some of it was like, I wasn’t sure if it was shock or some of that, but I was angry. When everything came out, and the house was such a peaceful, loving place where everyone got along. It just changed so dramatically. Instantly, I just thought it was like, “this is such a trick.” I expected it to stop at any time. It was just like a week. Okay. A month. That’s part of what happened within the next six weeks. Six weeks into it, and this is still happening. Other things transpired that kind of made me pull a trigger, but I don’t know what you want to get into and when.
Dr. Joe:
Okay. So you ended the affair?
Karson:
That’s a complicated way to put it. I did initially. Then a long time later, I had some setbacks a few months after that. I was the one that initially brought up one of your podcasts. I was driving two hours to work. Obviously, I wasn’t pastoring anymore. I had found a job that paid really well, but it was seven days a week, 12 hours a day, and driving two hours back and forth. So she gave me your podcast, and I was on “Limerence.”
Ashley:
It was “Three Prayers About Love That God Won’t Answer.”
Karson:
Yeah.
Ashley:
That’s the title of it.
Dr. Joe:
“Three Prayers About Love That God Won’t Answer” was a long time ago when we made that.
Karson:
I was listening to it, and it took what I thought was a personal experience that no one else could ever have or imagine and “formulalized” it. I actually sent it to the other girl. I said, “I don’t want you to listen to this, but I don’t want to hide it from you, this information.” After that, the conversation kind of went to, “this probably just needs to end.” It was a mutual ending there at that point.
Dr. Joe:
I think that was very profound. “I’m sending this to you because I don’t want to hide it from you, but I don’t want you to listen to it.” That says a lot, doesn’t it? That explains a lot about your nature and emotions, etc. At what point did things begin to change for you guys?
Karson:
I was working a lot on myself, and one of the things I realized was never fixing my first marriage and never getting over that and jumping into ours so quickly. It was like not only did I have to get over Ashley and I’s past relationship, but I was still trying to get over another failed relationship. Then I’d lost the church. It was everything that. I planted it with my ex-father-in-law, so it was my everything too. It was a massive loss. A loss of friends and obviously the other person and her family and all of them, they were all our closest friends. So, it was a massive, massive loss. I went into a really bad depression for 18 months. I mean, how long until I took medication, would you say?
Ashley:
16 months.
Karson:
It was a fight for us. We were getting along. I don’t know how to put it. It was a better relationship, but it was…
Ashley:
We weren’t connected emotionally very well.
Karson:
There was no emotional connection. Physically things were great!
Ashley:
We had a good time.
Dr. Joe:
I’m sorry. I didn’t hear you. What’d you say, Ashley?
Ashley:
I said we had a good time.
Dr. Joe:
You had a good time. So, physically things are much better. Emotionally, you’re not connected, but at least things have calmed down at that point.
Karson:
Yes. I had gone through a couple of setbacks, and after we got through some of that, I was working a lot on myself with some counseling. We’re working with Jim as a coach through that whole time. I’m sure I irritated him to death. But having a coach like that was just so much better than any of the counseling I’d ever had. He never told me I was trapped.
Dr. Joe:
I’m so sorry that the counselor said that to you. Just for those out there who are listening or watching, understand that we offer coaching at Marriage Helper, which is not counseling. It’s not therapy. It’s not done by people with Masters and Ph.D. degrees.
It’s done by people who understand a lot of my life. So rather than the counseling or therapy, which they’re not trained to do, they do coaching. Jim is one of our coaches. We have quite a few. Why did you decide to take the coaching? First of all, let me backup. Did you ever go through any of the material in the “Save My Marriage” course, Karson? Or was it just Ashley?
Ashley:
No, he just went through the workshop material.
Karson:
Yeah. I never saw any of it before I showed up at the workshop.
Dr. Joe:
In consideration of the value, Ashley, how valuable to you was the “Save My Marriage” course?
Ashley:
It was overly valuable to me. I can’t even speak enough on it because it just gave me something to focus on. You can’t control everything, but I can dedicate 30-minutes of my day to this program and then make sure I’m implementing it. No matter what, it just helped me focus on myself, and what I could do, and understanding relationships.
Dr. Joe:
I understand. Can you specifically mention anything other than the horsemen we talked about? Can you remember any other big things for you in that course/
Ashley:
The reading about the love path really helped because it just completely made sense how relationships can just fall apart by falling off of it. Reading that and understanding that was like, “now I know how to move forward.” We’re going to work on PIES but let’s also create a friendship. That was super helpful, so that’s what I worked on. No matter where I was in the course is like, “let me work on my friendship with my husband. No matter what day it is, he’s still my friend, and I’m going to treat him like my friend, and let’s see what can happen.”
Dr. Joe:
That’s actually very deep and profound. Karson, even though you didn’t know she was going through that course at the time, do you think it was worth her a couple of hundred dollars investment? It’s a lot more investment of time. Do you, now looking back on it, think that was a good investment for Ashley of her time and effort?
Karson:
Yes, without a doubt, it was. Finding you guys was obviously, I think, what saved our marriage. I think what it did for her, too is, is it gave her hope. Also, because I felt like I was just so distant for so long, it gave her a connection in a community and all of that to go, “I’m not in this alone. There are other people that are experiencing the same thing. Some of them worse, some of them better. Some of them have made it, some of them haven’t. But that community and experience, I think, was crucial for her. Then, like I said, just to hear your and Jim’s story in mine, I just felt it was just crazy.
Dr. Joe:
I’m assuming then you became part of that special Facebook community just for people who are in the SMM course.
Ashley:
Yes.
Dr. Joe:
Okay. We had that big one, that one that we limit to 5,500 people that you know you can get in line and hopefully get into. And again, if we had a lot more moderators, we could make it bigger, but we don’t want to serve. We don’t want to try to serve people more than we can serve. You got into that special group, though. When you’re in that course, there is a special group, and people are in there along with our admins. You both feel if I heard you correctly and didn’t let me put words in your mouth, but you both feel that the few hundred dollars that thing costs because it’s not very financially expensive, it’s more timing expensive. You worked through it. You both feel that was a good investment?
Karson:
Without a doubt. We’ve told everybody that’s come to us about marriage or anything like that, “you’ve got to go Marriage Helper. I don’t know what else to tell you. You’ve got to get a part of those groups and get that material.” We explain it sometimes without trying to try to explain it without the paperwork or any of that. We’ll get home from maybe a date, or if we’re out with other couples and go, “did you hear that horseman?” Or “did you catch those things?”
Dr. Joe:
Would you recommend this course then to other people?
Ashley:
Yes. I had a really close friend of mine actually sign up for the group and was able to reconcile her marriage as well.
Dr. Joe:
Awesome. What would you say to anybody out there right now who is watching this or listening to this? We do both video and audio that might be having marriage difficulties. What would you say to them about the online “Save My Marriage” course?
Ashley:
I would definitely say it’s worth it because there is hope there are steps for improvement and to give it a shot.
Dr. Joe:
Karson, do you feel the same way?
Karson:
Absolutely. Again, I didn’t get to see that side of Marriage Helper. But knowing the empowerment that she had and her ability to stand up when everyone else was telling her to get lost or telling her to leave me. All those “don’t let me do this.” All those things were the opposite of what I think that group was telling her, and she lost friends over it and lost a lot of people because she just kept loving me.
Speaker 1:
It’s amazing how that will happen. On a scale of 1-10, how would you guys, and of course, I know Karson, you didn’t go through it, but you saw the effect of it? On a scale of 1- 10, how would you rate the online “Save My Marriage” Course?
Karson:
I guess 17.
Ashley:
It would have to be a ten because I’ve done it a few times, and I still use the material after reconciling because it’s not, for most people, smooth sailing right away. Years later, going back at the material, I can’t say, “I wish this was different. Oh, this should have been different.” That’s why I would give it a 10.
Dr. Joe:
Okay. At some point, you decided you wanted to try the workshop. Did Karson know anything about us at that point? Or did you approach him cold?
Ashley:
He knew about it because I had sent him that podcast. I wasn’t asking a lot from him at the time. So I was like, “we have a good friendship.” I don’t ask basically for anything from him. Can you please do me this favor? At least listen to this. So, he heard of Marriage Helper from the podcast. When I first asked him, he was like, “I don’t know.” When he did cut his affair off, he knew that it was going to take something to make it work. And so he’s like, “Hey, what about that workshop? If I can get off, I’d like to do it with you.” I’m like, “yeah, let me call someone right now. No backsies.”
Dr. Joe:
“No backsies” I love that. No, back then, we only had the in-person version. Today, we also do it online. You went to the in-person version down in Tennessee. Who was the person leading that workshop?
Karson:
They both did, like, I heard your story. But Jim…
Ashley:
Jim led it.
Karson:
Jim led it. You’re right. I think you might’ve opened it because you were definitely there. I remember talking to you, but I think Jim led most of it.
Dr. Joe:
That would make sense that you wound up coaching with Jim afterward. Jim was the one who led your workshop, and Jim’s one of our coaches. We have quite a few. What did the workshop do for you? Let me backup. How did you feel after the end of the first day of the workshop?
Karson:
Do you remember?
Ashley:
No. I don’t. I was so scared.
Karson:
It was just intense. It was the whole weekend. It was emotions. We went back two times after that, and it’s like, “oh, I didn’t remember that.” You can’t catch it all. It was so much information, and I think you said something to me. I was talking to Ashley about it before the call. I told you a little bit about my story, just being a pastor and so many things, and you’re just really encouraging. You actually said I could call you anytime I needed to. I never did call you, but I appreciated the offer. I felt hope. I didn’t have that for a long time. Years, I didn’t have hope, and I just thought eventually this thing was going to end, and it was just a matter of time. I just hoped that it wouldn’t be a train wreck like it almost ended up being
Dr. Joe:
Thank you for that. I’m assuming that meant that you’re talking about how you felt after the workshop altogether, but do you remember how you felt at the end of the first day of the workshop? If you don’t, that’s fine, but if you do…
Karson:
No, I can’t remember which things were on which day exactly. I’m sorry.
Dr. Joe:
The reason I asked is that it’s not unusual at the end of the first day; people would be going, “my goodness, there’s so much coming at us, and we don’t know how to feel about this.”
Karson:
We were very much drinking from a fire hydrant.
Dr. Joe:
I guess it kind of is. When you left the workshop, how were things for you at that point?
Speaker 3:
They were still “yo-yo’s.” Do you know what I mean? It’s still up and down. We still had a lot of back and forth. Not with stay or go, but just trying to get some of the pieces together because of my depression, I think.
Ashley:
It was managing tension basically, but it was still good. I know I had left the workshop filled just with extreme hope, and knowing if we can both just stay the course of our marriage, that will get there. I knew we would get there. That’s what I remember about the third day.
Speaker 1:
Of course, the course costs some money, and then it takes a lot of time because you came to the in-person workshop. So, probably you had to come a day early. It’s not unusual that a couple winds up with five days when they come to the in-person workshop a day on either end of travel. So, you’ve got that inconvenience of losing work, and there’s an investment of a fee to come to the workshop itself. Was it worth it? Was it worth all that investment of time and money?
Karson:
Without a doubt. It’s chump change considering what a divorce costs or what splitting your pension costs, child support costs. I mean, if you’re just talking financially, It’s an investment. We’re way better off, without a doubt. What we tried to tell other people was…We sent a couple there, and it was okay, “Let’s just find the people to pay for it.” Maybe they didn’t understand because if you’re not there, you didn’t go, you don’t know how much the value of it. We’re sitting there going, “this is a no-brainer.” I don’t care if it costs ten grand. It wouldn’t matter. It’s worth it.
Dr. Joe:
No, no. If you want to send us ten grand, we’ll take it. So, it’s well worth the money. It’s well worth the time, and you’ve convinced other people of that. As you said, when you first leave, it’s not instantaneous; everything’s perfect. There’s still a lot of work to do. How long before you came to the second workshop?
Karson:
It was another year, right? It’s just the following.
Ashley:
Yeah. Ten months-ish.
Dr. Joe:
How many workshops have you been in altogether?
Ashley:
Three.
Dr. Joe:
How much time between the second and third one?
Ashley:
Another year.
Dr. Joe:
Another year. So about once a year, you guys would come back.
Karson:
We would have been there last year if it wasn’t for COVID.
Dr. Joe:
Great. We’d love to have you come once a year. You’re right. We hear from everybody, and we even had a couple, believe it or not, Karson, that actually came to the workshop two weeks apart.
Ashley & Karson:
Oh, wow.
Dr. Joe:
Literally, they came to the workshop and then came to the workshop again literally two weeks and said, “We can’t believe how much you changed and added in two weeks.” Of course, we hadn’t changed or added anything. It’s just that already, they were able to hear it differently. Is that the case? When you come back to the workshop, you heard more stuff because it was now in a different frame?
Ashley:
Especially the second time.
Karson:
Yes, and there are different speakers, different presenters each too. You’re getting different concepts. It heavy for us that first time we went, and then I think the second time it was a different tone or maybe the third time.
Ashley:
Yeah. The second one was more… Just the way they interacted on a daily basis, just really similar to where we were at some point. It was just really destroying them. So, it really helped us to hear that.
Speaker 3:
Then the third time, Jim, our coach, did our wedding renewal.
Dr. Joe:
Oh, you renewed your vows the third time. Who were some of the other facilitators you went through the workshop with other than Jim?
Ashley:
We did Jim, we did Dave Matthews, and then the third one as yourself.
Dr. Joe:
So three of our different leaders, and it’s not really different concepts. We teach the exact same concepts; it’s just that each speaker has his or her own style. The stories that we illustrate will change with the speakers, but it’s still the same concept.
Okay. So you’ve been through it. If somebody is out there listening right now, a husband, wife, or maybe both of them together and listen to your story and they’re having troubles, what would you tell them about the workshop?
Ashley & Karson:
I would say go before you make any decisions. Oh, definitely. You know, just, you know, pause and go to that workshop.
Karson:
There’s no reason to rush any kind of decision about your relationship might as well get, and this was how a lot of how I felt was getting as much information as you can. You would hate to get at the end of the road and go, “if I had known that piece or if I have known that, then maybe we would have made it.” Just get everything you can to hold on. as long as you can. It’s worth every fight. It’s worth everything—every ounce of energy, every hour of our loss of sleep, it’s worth that.
Dr. Joe:
Let me ask you some questions. It might be a little difficult, but use your judgment as best you can. When the affair was exposed on a scale of 1-10, where was your marriage at that point? In terms of how each of you felt like Ashley, how would you rate it then? And Karson, how would you rate it? The affair has just been exposed on a scale of 1-10, how would each of you rate your marriage at that point?
Ashley:
I was miserable, but I didn’t know why. It was a super disconnect.
Karson:
Yeah. I had checked out. It definitely was 1-2. I guess it depends. Everyone’s one is probably different. Based on like no one was getting hurt, physically or anything like that. So, it’s not like that, but it was awful. I didn’t want to be there. I didn’t feel liked. That was another thing, “why aren’t we doing this? Do we like each other? Why are we married? We’re just married. We’re not friends.”
Ashley:
We were roommates.
Karson:
We were roommates that had good sex.
Dr. Joe:
Even at that point, you were still having good sex?
Ashley:
I don’t know if I would categorize it as good or great back then, but it was definitely still…
Karson:
Frequent.
Dr. Joe:
From just the physical standpoint, you were still very active but not necessarily connecting emotionally. So, Ashley, how would you rate your marriage than when you finally completed the 10-week program actually is 12-weeks now. At least 12 sessions, people can do whatever speed they wish. After you finished the “Save My Marriage” course, how would you rate it then at that point? Okay. So that’s a pretty dramatic improvement. Even though you didn’t know what she was doing, Karson, how would you have rated things about that time?
Karson:
I mean, it was definitely much better. Five would be good. It was manageable, and had it not been for the trauma; it would have been definitely bearable. Probably more than bearable at that point, if it hadn’t been for the limerence still being there and the trauma of losing my church and losing my friends and all those things. So it was hard to separate her and my actions towards that with my loss.
Dr. Joe:
For those of you who are listening or watching, and you just heard a word, you don’t know a limerence. If you go to our website, marriagehelper.com, you can find various information there, articles, etc., about limerence. Or go to a YouTube channel, youtube.com/marriagehelper. By the way, if you go there, please subscribe. It’s free, and it helps us reach even more people and touch more lives. So, when you go to the workshop. After the first workshop on a scale of 1-10?
Karson:
After the first workshop, I would say we were still right there, the 5-6 for me. It didn’t change the relationship as much as it gave us tools to later change it, I guess, sort of beginning working on it. So after, I wouldn’t say it was a lot of difference, but I had a direction.
Dr. Joe:
That makes sense. It’s not some magic talisman that you just show up for three days and walk out, and the light shines, and the rainbow touches you. There’s still some work to do. So, you start applying to things. Before you came to the second workshop, I’m assuming you had been applying things you learned the first time through. Just before you came to the second one on a scale of 1-10, where would you put it?
Ashley:
I think it depended on the week. It wasn’t a bad relationship, but the emotional connection just still wavered. Right before we came to the second workshop, I would say it was between 6-7. It was like, “we know we’re doing so much better. Let’s go and learn the rest of this stuff. We’re smart enough to know that we didn’t learn it all. “Let’s see what we can do better going forward.”
Karson:
Yeah. Refined some of the tools. The thing that kept going through my head as I know I’m married to a beautiful person, a kind person, someone that loves me more than anyone has ever loved me. I mean, she’s put up with all of this. There are all these like head things that I knew, but I think my depression was just so deep that even though I knew in my head things were that this was a great relationship, I was still struggling.
Dr. Joe:
If I heard you correctly, you were getting some kind of medication or something to help with the depression.
Ashley:
He waited over a year.
Karson:
I waited over a year to start it. I hated medication. I would never take it. I didn’t take Tylenol for headaches.
Dr. Joe:
So, finally, you did.
Karson:
I finally got on an SSRI.
Dr. Joe:
Rate your marriage between the second and third workshop.
Karson:
Oh, Lord. I didn’t know that you could have a marriage like that. You’ve always wanted to be married to your best friend or someone that you enjoy life with. It was awesome. It is awesome.
Dr. Joe:
I’m so very happy. So, let me ask you the question then for those that are listening or watching, they might be thinking, “oh crap! We got to go to two workshops for it to work.” What would you be saying to them? If they can only come to one, based on your story, should they be thinking, “if we can only do one, it’s not going to be that big of a deal.” Or is one that big a deal?
Karson:
One’s absolutely a big deal. That was where you’re introduced to all the tools, and those are the things that we need, and we still use today. In the end, the dreaming together. That was what was so crucial to us, just to talk and sit on the porch.
Ashley & Karson:
That summer, we sat on the porch for hours, just talking for hours.
Dr. Joe:
That was after the first workshop?
Karson:
No, it was at the end of it. That dreaming tool that we got from that first session, we knew we had a goal, so it was getting to those things. I believe if I just got on an SSRI a lot sooner, that the effect would have been very different, but we were able to build our relationship. Once the fog lifted, every just snapped. It’s like, why don’t you just lift the fog a lot sooner? That was my stubbornness.
Dr. Joe:
I’m glad you got some good help for that. I’m a proponent for getting the right kind of medications to help. I’m all for that. So, we’ve mentioned three different things. Let’s see if we can clarify for the people who are paying attention to this. The first is we do have the online “Save My Marriage” course, which is now 12 sessions. You still have access to the ten sessions that Ashley went through. We call that our “legacy” course, and you actually get access to both. Once a week, there’s this coaching call where you can go type in your questions, and different ones of our coaches will do that session once a week. They’ll answer as many questions as they can in about an hour or so. Plus, you get a special Facebook group that I’m assuming, actually, based on what you said, was very beneficial to you as well. That’s the SMM. You do recommend to people it’s very inexpensive and, in the scheme of things, that the SMM is worth the time and the money to do. You’re saying that, is that right?
Ashley & Karson:
Absolutely, without a doubt. I feel like no matter what, it was life-changing for me. It was the part, I think, with the PIES that was so cool. Where it was like no matter what, we’re just better people, and now we’re just both married to better people even though it’s the same person.
Dr. Joe:
That’s good. Of course, we have the workshop, and what I hear you say, I want to clarify this just one more time, is that if you had gone on the medications for the depression earlier, that you think you would have had better success from the first workshop. You guys are both saying the first workshop is absolutely worthwhile even if a couple can’t come back to others later?
Ashley & Karson:
100%. Absolutely.
Dr. Joe:
If you can come back to the workshop as many times as you wish at a reduced rate and I’ll guarantee you. By the way, we changed some things since the last in-person workshop you came to. We actually added a section on Sunday that if, and when you guys come back again, you’re going to hear some really cool stuff that we put on a Sunday afternoon. That’s the third day of workshops in the afternoon that we just put in the last calendar year after COVID. I think that you’re going to love that. It’s really awesome. We look at all that stuff, and then you went into coaching, and you decided to coach with Jim. When people enroll in the workshop, they have an option to get a discount on coaching if they go ahead and enroll in that at the same time. Altogether, Karson, about how many sessions do you think you had with Jim?
Ashley & Karson:
A lot of sessions. I don’t know how frequent it was. It’s weird with that kind of trauma and some of the stuff, the things I don’t remember in years. I’m bad with details and some of those things in the timelines.
Ashley:
I don’t want to say how many. I think total now we didn’t do every single one of them together.
Karson:
Some we did together, some were just me. Some were just her. Some were her then me and even in the same session.
Ashley:
24, something like that.
Dr. Joe:
That’s like eight packages because each package comes with three sessions. For those out there listening and thinking, “Oh my goodness, we can’t afford eight packages.”
Ashley:
You just have to listen to the coach, and you don’t need as many.
Dr. Joe:
Many people buy a three-session package after the workshop, and that’s enough for them, but everybody’s unique. Because you were dealing with so many things, particularly the kind of lost, you were talking about not just the loss of my first marriage, but also the loss of the church that I helped found, etc. You were doing some pretty heavy stuff there. I’m glad that Jim was of help, and I’m glad you had that many sessions with Jim. Just to let people know that it doesn’t typically require 24 sessions. It can often be done less than that, but they’re there for you if need be.
Ashley:
That was mostly me like, “wait, am I sure am I doing this right? Let me talk about it.”
Dr. Joe:
That’s fine. Well, it looks like you guys really are doing well right now.
Karson:
Yup, absolutely. It’s great.
Dr. Joe:
So, life is wonderful. Good for you and so happy for you. To the listening audience out there, two people who are real people, not some actors, we’ve hired that kind of stuff. What would you tell him about Marriage Helper in general? What would you tell them about the various services of Marriage Helper as we wind up? I realize some of this will be redundant to what you’ve said before, but what would you like to say to people before we go?
Karson:
From my children’s lives, my career passion, my marriage, I owe it to Marriage Helper. It’s what gave Ashley strength to put up with all of my nonsense and through my depression and not give up on me, even when I was just hoping she would. It was everything. I felt like I deserved to be given up on. Then it was the Marriage Helper that equipped her with what’s needed, and it’s just anybody that’s having any kind of issues. I did. That’s where I point them. I just point them to you guys. I say, “That’s the place to go.” Those are the folks that do that… I’m trying to think of the best way to put it. It’s not past-focused, and that was what was so cool. It wasn’t focused on what we had done, why we were where we were so much like the horseman. It was very much; you’re all here. The group of people, all of you, are in miserable relationships. We’re moving forward from this. We’re going somewhere. It was nice to know that first, you weren’t alone, that there was community and that people have done it before. So do it.
Dr. Joe:
Cool. Ashley?
Ashley:
I think that all of the services or packages are amazing. I was definitely lucky to be able to do them all between time and finances. But anyone or combination of one can still give you the tools you need to reconcile your marriage. I believe that without a doubt.
Dr. Joe:
Good. Excellent. Typically we say to people like this; if your spouse is not at the point to be interested in trying to help the marriage work out, then we would recommend where Ashley went, which is our “Save My Marriage” course. You do it online at your own pace. There are 12 modules. Plus, you get access to the ten modules of the old course as well.
If he or she is really ready, we would recommend coming to the workshop because we do the most intense work. In those three days of that workshop, you can now do that online. We have discovered that online is just as effective as the in-person workshop. We’d love to have you guys come there, and then there’s coaching. You can actually start with coaching if you wanted, but we recommend coaching either after the “Save My Marriage” course or after the workshop. We have men coaches and women coaches.
Again, they’re not counselors or therapists. These are people that we’ve trained to do coaching. I love what you said, Karson. I actually teach counselors and therapists. I actually do that. In the process, a lot of what they’re taught to do is to go back through the past. There’s value for that with certain difficulties. If a person’s dealing with a personal issue that he or she can’t get kept past, then digging back into the past can be very helpful. Our coaches don’t do that. Our workshop doesn’t do that. Our courses don’t do that because what we want you to do is to start now and go forward.
If you need therapy for the past, there are people out there who are really good at that. But if you’re ready to do something, then everything we do is aimed in that direction. Do you think I’ve described that accurately?
Karson:
Absolutely, that’s exactly it. That was so different from the counseling. You never said, like I said, “trapped.” It was like, “Here’s where you go. Here’s how you get out. Here’s what you do.”
Dr. Joe:
Karson, I am so sorry.
Karson:
I’ll never forget it.
Dr. Joe:
I probably won’t either now, but I’m so sorry to hear that. It just breaks my heart. Thank you guys for sharing this for other people to be exposed to. Thank you very much. Thank you for your transparency, your openness, your honesty. That’s just absolutely wonderful. So, thank you for doing that, and many wonderful things continue to happen with you. We want to continue a relationship with you guys. We think very highly of you.
Karson:
No, thank you. We’ll look forward to being back as soon as you let us. Do you have an in-person right now? I don’t know how that works.
Dr. Joe:
No. COVID cost us the ability to do the in-person workshops, but now that things are easing up some, we do have scheduled our first in-person. The person in-person workshop is already scheduled and booked is full. It was filled “like that.” What’s happening now with all of our workshops, Karson and Ashley, is that they’re filling up almost immediately.
People are calling, saying, “can we come sometime in the next couple of three weeks or four weeks?” We’re saying, “every workshop is full until about six weeks out.” We’re doing 36 workshops this year, and they’re filling up that fast.
You can schedule a visit with one of our client relations folks, and they’re not counselors. They’re not coaches. There are people who have listened to your story and then help guide you to the best product or service that we have.
If we don’t have one for you, they’ll tell you that. If you call about something that we can help you with, they’ll tell you because we’re all about helping you become the best you can be and having the best marriage you can. So thank you again, you guys. I really appreciate you being on the program, and I hope I get to see you when you come back down again. I really do.
