In this episode of Relationship Radio, Dr. Joe Beam interviews a couple who were able to overcome a controlling relationship and build a stronger marriage than ever before.
How It All Began
Dr. Joe:
Here at Marriage Helper, we tell all kinds of great stories about people and how their lives have been changed in their marriage because of putting certain principles into practice. Of course, it’s never the same when telling someone’s story as when they tell their own story.
So, we have a couple here to do that today, Ryan and Vanessa. They’re over in the great state of California, and they’re here to talk about how we at Marriage Helper have been able to help them deal with a controlling relationship.
Dr. Joe:
So tell me, when did you meet and how did you meet?
Ryan:
We grew up in church together.
Vanessa:
Two and three years old.
Ryan:
Yeah. Her brother was in the same Royal Rangers classes as me. She was always Chris’ little sister, and we kind of grew apart over the years.
Dr. Joe:
When you say grew apart, were you already an item before then?
Ryan:
No. We grew up because we were kids. It was in high school, my senior year that. I just graduated from high school, and she showed up at church one morning, and I was like, “Oh, she’s not so little anymore.”
Dr. Joe:
So, did you start dating right away, or how did that evolve?
Ryan:
I had just gotten out of a relationship. I had sworn off dating for a year, and I just couldn’t shake the feeling that I wanted to get to know her better. So, I spent a week trying to find her phone number.
Back in the day in youth group, we all had to sign roll sheets and put our phone number so that I could get her phone number from that. I called her out and asked her out for a Coke as friends. She said no.
Dr. Joe:
Why did you say no, Vanessa?
Vanessa:
I’ll be honest, I dealt with terrible acne, and I had my face break out, and I’m like, “there is no way I’m going out of this house.” So, that was the only reason.
Dr. Joe:
So, it had nothing to do with Ryan. It was your own self-image at that point, correct?
Vanessa:
Yes.
Dr. Joe:
Okay, cool. So I’m assuming you persisted, is that correct?
Ryan:
I did. I was gentle about it, and she suggested the following week may be better. So, we met and went to a church event. It was ice skating in San Jose, and we were both too cheap to spend the money to go ice skating.
We sat and talked in the bleachers for about two and a half hours while the college group was ice skating. Afterward, the group went to my parents’ home, so she got to see my parents. I think we had Taco Bell for dinner that night and split the bill. I was really attracted that she was as frugal as I was.
Dr. Joe:
That actually can be pretty advantageous. So, how long did you guys date before you got serious?
Fairy Tales
Ryan:
It was the following year when I joined the Navy. When I got out of boot camp, I knew that I wanted to propose. It was in April.
Vanessa:
April 30th of 93 that he proposed.
Ryan:
In July of 94, we got married. So, a long engagement.
Dr. Joe:
Were you out of the Navy by then?
Ryan:
I was still in the Navy. I was a hospital corpsman stationed at the Naval Medical Center in Oakland at the time.
Dr. Joe:
So, you were stationed there, and that’s close to where you lived, Vanessa. Is that correct?
Vanessa:
Yeah, about two hours away.
Dr. Joe:
Okay, good. Eventually, at some point, I’m sure you know, no marriage is ever perfect. The only way a marriage could be perfect is if they get hit by a meteor after they say, “I do.” Otherwise, I don’t know how it can be possibly perfect.
We are human beings. I’m sure it had some ups and downs, but when did it start to get tough?
Vanessa:
I think that there were issues before we got married, but we were too deep into the engagement at that point. My parents were putting so much money into it, but I knew I loved him. I didn’t know what a controlling relationship it was at the time.
I thought, “It’ll just work out. Marriage is like a fairy tale, and when we get married, it’ll be like a fairy tale.”
Ryan:
My fairy tale was different.
Vanessa:
Yeah, than mine.
Dr. Joe:
So, Vanessa, are you saying that you thought you had problems and, Ryan, you thought you didn’t? Is that what you’re saying?
Ryan:
I didn’t know the problems were to the extent that she perceived them to be.
Oh No. What Have I Done?
Dr. Joe:
Can you kind of give us a hint as to what the problems were?
Ryan:
We both grew up in very conservative Christian homes. Sex was off the table before marriage. Being in my late teens with raging male hormones, I thought marriage would be a sexual buffet, and I wanted a sampler platter beforehand.
She was adamant that was not going to happen. So, there was a lot of friction over that, and not to make it sound like that was an everyday thing, but it was something rooted from time to time.
Dr. Joe:
Right. I understand. Was that it, or were other things happening as well?
Vanessa:
There were some like when I would spend time with my best friend. It was a struggle.
There was one night when my best friend came over to watch a movie. He came over to watch it as well but didn’t like the movie we’d picked. I told him he could leave if he didn’t want to watch it. He left very unhappily. It was not a good thing.
Ryan:
I’m a control freak.
Dr. Joe:
Well, that’s what I was going to ask. Could you feel that?
Vanessa:
Yes.
Dr. Joe:
All right. So, you felt like you might be in a controlling relationship?
Vanessa:
I didn’t see it then because I grew up with it. So to me, it felt normal. I grew up in one controlling relationship or another. I was the youngest, so I had brothers and sisters who directed me, and my dad was very strict.
So, it kind of felt normal for especially a male figure to control me. So, I just thought that it was normal to be in a controlling relationship.
Dr. Joe:
I am what you would call a conservative Christian, and I have seen that so often, particularly in conservative Christianity. Women are somewhat subjugated but thankfully, that is changing.
Okay. So, you finally got married, and then how long did you go before you begin to hit some significant troubles?
Ryan:
We were in Pearl Harbor for our honeymoon, and there was a photo of her sitting in the corner. I am on cloud-nine la-la just married, this is my bride—I’m ecstatic. I’m taking pictures of everything, and little did I know she wasn’t in that same headspace. I learned this 20 years after the fact.
Vanessa:
There’s a picture where you can see the anguish on my face. Like, Oh dear God, what did I get myself into?
Dr. Joe:
That’s what you were feeling on the honeymoon? “Oh, dear God, what did I get myself into?” That had to be very miserable for you.
Vanessa:
Yeah, but I pushed it down for 22 years.
Dr. Joe:
You’d been trained to push it down.
Vanessa:
Yes.
Dr. Joe:
Okay. Wow. So, you found out ten years later. Why ten years later? What happened then?
Out Of Time
Ryan:
Our honeymoon was in 94. It was roughly 22 years later when we were in the midst of crisis, and that’s when Vanessa finally reached the point where she was able to open up. In July of 2016, she said, “I love you, but I’m not in love with you.”
Vanessa:
There were things we worked on before that without resolving them. We were in Puerto Rico, and it was pretty bad. I said,” fly me home, and when you get home, I’ll be at my parents’ with the kids.” We had two kids at the time.
I asked him straight off. I said, “what’s our oldest son’s teacher’s name? What’s his favorite color? What’s his favorite food to eat?” He couldn’t answer any of it. So I thought, what do I need you for? I don’t need you. There was a lot of tension then.
He saw it, and he did do a lot of changing then, but controlling behaviors started to creep back. Then we found out what pregnant with our third child.
Ryan:
We were going through some counseling at that point, which did help. Since high school, I dealt with a porn addiction, which is so destructive to a marriage. So, trying to work through that, I had no idea the damage it did to Vanessa. It took its toll over time, and in a conservative Christian home, when one person wants sex, you should get it, right? First Corinthians Chapter Seven says you don’t deprive the other.
Dr. Joe:
First Corinthians Chapter Seven. Yes, I know.
Vanessa:
He threw that at me quite a bit.
Dr. Joe:
Again, I am a Christian, and when I see scripture used in controlling relationships, I can’t help but think, “that’s not what that scripture means.”
So Vanessa, if I may ask, what did it do to you inside? The way you thought, the way you felt, etc. That he was using pornography?
Vanessa:
I dealt with low self-esteem since I was in junior high. I was anorexic. I had low self-esteem from things that happened in my childhood and through high school. Finding out about the porn killed me even more. I thought how I couldn’t compare at all. I am definitely not doing the stuff from the videos. Then I felt, maybe that’s what I’m supposed to be for him to love me.
So, there was a period in my life where I would work out like crazy and tried to be that perfect body, killing my self-esteem. I didn’t like myself or the relationship. Sex was a duty, and I hated it. I wasn’t interested in it at all, but I was married, and it was what I had to do as a wife.
Dr. Joe:
It’s kind of interesting when you start reading the research, even women who are like, “Hey, my husband and I watch porn together. It’s exhilarating.” Even the women who start like that, it’s incredible that many of them eventually get to exactly where you just described. Like, “I can’t compare with those people. I can’t look like they look, I can’t do all the things they do, etc. Therefore I am somehow inferior.” And that’s how you felt, right?
Vanessa:
Very much so.
Finding Hope
Dr. Joe:
Yeah. That’s obviously not good for anybody to get to that point. Okay. So when did you guys decide to reach out to us or find us? How did that happen?
Ryan:
It was in July of 16. She was done. It was August, and she had spent some time with her sister in New Zealand. They were talking and trying to process things. When she came home, we met with a local marriage counselor that we’ve been trying to work with. At that point, she said she was done with this controlling relationship and wanted a divorce.
The counselor was not as helpful as I thought that he would be. I expected him to try and pump the brakes on that. In hindsight, I see some of the things that Marriage Helper advises about with counselors, and it was, each of us was a client and not the marriage itself.
To his credit, he did try and pump the brakes and said, “Look, if we don’t know what to do, let’s not do anything just yet. We have time to figure out if divorce is what you want. We can talk together and figure out how to make that happen.”
Dr. Joe:
In other words, “I’ll help you figure out how to divorce.” Is that what I just heard?
Ryan:
Yes. In a roundabout way.
Dr. Joe:
Good marriage counselors are worth their weight in gold. We love them. We cherish them. Yet, so often, it’s more like what you just described. So, what happened then?
Ryan:
At that point, she was kind of doing her own thing, and I was grasping at straws. Here I am, a control freak without a controlling relationship. I’d spent the last year breaking free of this porn addiction. I felt that I’d been clean, if you will, for six months, but my mind was still there, and there was more that I needed to learn.
I knew there were things about me that I needed to change. Because if I went into another marriage, I would be right back where I was, and I didn’t want to repeat it. So, reaching out to people, I found the men’s ministry leader at our church who essentially said, “you need to kick her to the curb if she’s not following what the Bible tells us to do.” I knew that that was not what I wanted to do, and I didn’t feel that it was right.
It was probably November of 2016; we’re at Knott’s Berry Farm with the family, still living together trying to figure this out. I told the kids that we were having problems. We weren’t sure what we were going to do about it.
Dr. Joe:
How old were they at that point, the kids?
Vanessa:
Our daughter was 11. Our middle son was about 14 or 15, and our other one was 17-18.
Dr. Joe:
So, from 11-17 over that span. If I may ask, and I don’t mean to take us off-topic, how did they react to that information?
Ryan:
I think they were surprised. They felt that we hid it well. We spent a lot of time praying with the kids. I did have a conversation with my middle son where I had to explain to him, “What’s happening with mom and dad is not your fault, and you have no bearing in this.” His response was, “Well, dad, sometimes it feels like it is.”
Dr. Joe:
I meet people who are adults, 50, 60 years old, even who say, “Somehow, I still feel like somehow I was a part of my parents’ divorce. I don’t know what I did, but I felt like I did something.” The children love you so much and want you to be together. So it’s not uncommon for them to feel that. Wow. So you were at Knott’s Berry Farm?
Ryan:
Yeah. Knott’s Berry Farm with the family, and I’m grasping at straws. My head isn’t there. The kids are having fun, and I’m on my phone Googling, “wayward spouse.” I’m literally grasping at straws, and Marriage Helper crossed the search field.
I started reading some of the material from Marriage Helper, and I was like, “Holy cow, this is how I feel.” I’m not ready to call it a day yet.
I believe that Vanessa is a good person. I know that I feel like I’m a good person that did some bad things. Some friends and family and the men’s ministry leader at church had told me Vanessa was doing a bad thing right now. Here behavior is inexcusable. Unforgivable. She needs to be kicked to the curb.
They didn’t understand the 22 years I subjected her to porn and a controlling relationship. She put up with it for 22 years. Why can’t I put up with it for 22 months, 22 weeks, 22 days?
Dr. Joe:
That’s actually very mature, very deep, my friend. Because you’re familiar with our material, we often tell people, be very, very careful about listening to your family and your friends.
They’re not bad people. They just love you so much that when they feel you’re being hurt, they get mad at the other person. They can give some very bad advice, no matter how wonderful they are.
Ryan, I admire you for you thinking that way. So, what happened then?
Ryan:
I don’t remember much about that day, but I do remember that. I spent some time on the phone with my client rep and learned about the Save My Marriage Course. To be frank, reading the website, it did seem like, “Hey, come try us out! For X amount of money, we’ll save your marriage.” I had to work through that, but I also saw the amount of material that was available at no charge, and I started consuming that. I became a member of the free Facebook group, and that was amazing.
Tina Toady Coleman is my control sister. I connected with her pretty quickly. She’s a fellow control freak, and she didn’t hesitate to call me out immediately. She’s from the East Coast. She’s going to call it like she sees it.
Dr. Joe:
Tina is one of our admins for our Facebook group, and she is an awesome human being. It makes no difference who it is. She would confront me if needed. She’s just tremendous.
For those who don’t understand what a client rep is, we have client relations people. We call them client representatives. You can schedule appointments with them on our site. They’re not counselors, and they’re not therapists. They listen to you and help guide you to whatever resources we have that can help.
You’re right. We have a lot of free at YouTube.com/MarriageHelper you can find hundreds of free videos there.
So you’re talking to your client rep, you’re hooked up on Facebook with Tina, who is straightening you out. So what happened then?
Ryan:
I started talking with my client rep, Amber, in December. Shout out to Amber. I found out the details for the Save My Marriage Course. Vanessa’ was done with the marriage at this point. I think I need to run that price by her and get her to buy in on it. Her response was not the warmest. “You do what you need to do, but know that I’m out.”
So I bought the course.
Dr. Joe:
That course is priced at about the price of two counseling sessions, by the way. It’s not thousands of dollars, but I understand. Vanessa is like, “Why would we spend money? I’m done. I’m out of here.” I get it.
Ryan:
I started the course in December of 2016 and then found out about the workshop. I asked Vanessa about the workshop, and it was a big “NO,” so I let it go. I started on the materials. The first video that I watched was Kimberly’s video, “Here’s the First Thing To Do When Saving Your Marriage.” That makes sense, right?
Working On Your PIES
Dr. Joe:
Kimberly is our CEO and also my youngest daughter. The only relative I have on a whole team of about 50 of us at this point and growing rapidly. You saw Kimberly’s video, “It Starts With PIES.” Is that what you just said?
Ryan:
Yes. I started working on PIES at the time.
Dr. Joe:
PIES is a system we teach. It’s an acronym that stands for Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, and Spiritual.
Ryan:
I started working on PIES, figuring out how can I attract Vanessa back. I realized that I was controlling. So, I started consuming and reviewing anything that I could find on the Marriage Helper website regarding controlling relationships. I went through everything on porn abuse and sex addiction as well. There were also a ton of other resources that really helped.
I found Celebrate Recovery, a support group for porn addiction. I went there for that. From there, it transitioned into going into another group for codependency, and that was eye-opening. I started meeting friends there. Through the first half of 2017, I spent a lot of time grieving, accepting everything that I would hear from Vanessa, growing and changing.
I was hell-bent that I would not be the man that I was before. I was going to be a different person, come hell or high water. If my wife wanted something to do with that person, she had the first choice, and if she didn’t, that was a decision that I would accept. Not to sound crass, but that would be her loss.
Dr. Joe:
Specifically, what are some of the things that the Save My Marriage course did for you?
Ryan:
I walked through control learning about the PIES. I don’t think that we called it SMART contact back then. I don’t remember that when that acronym came into play, but the concept was still there. It took me probably about eight months to go through a 10-week course.
Dr. Joe:
But you did it thoroughly then, right?
Ryan:
Very thoroughly. We did this letter a lot of time back then, and I had to figure out what I needed to own in the marriage and what wasn’t mine. Because Vanessa had her own things that she needed to work through that weren’t mine. The course prepared me for how to be okay, no matter the outcome.
I reached a point of self-confidence towards the end of that process. I knew I’d be okay if my marriage did or didn’t survive.
So many times in the groups, I see people praying, “I want to know if God wants me to divorce or not, is that God’s will for me or not?” And that was one of my prayers too. The answer that I received every time, it’s not God’s decision to make. He gives us that free will.
The answer I got was, “I will be with you if you’re married. I will be with you if you are divorced.” So, that was tough to accept. “God, tell me what to do. I’m a control guy. I need to know what to do.”
Changes
Dr. Joe:
So, Vanessa, did you see any changes in him during those eight months that he was going through that?
Vanessa:
Yes. I watched him very closely because I lived in a controlling relationship for 23 years. There were many times where he changed and then went back. That’s what I figured was going to happen. I watched him very closely and saw that he was really making some decent changes and thought they would stay, and they have. So we started, kind of going to different places to just talk and be friends.
That was our focus. Just be friends and see what happens. I watched him very closely. I don’t think he realized. If he made a mistake, then it was just like, “See, there it is,” and it freaked me out, and then I’d go back. But we would talk about it.
Ryan:
I remember a specific time where I blew it. She was out with a friend, and they were doing their thing, and I don’t know why that night, but I just lost it. I was constantly texting. I was calling, and I just lost it. She came home that night and was kind of beside herself.
It was the next day that I went to her, and I’d had a lot of time. When you’re in a marriage crisis and separated, you have a lot of time to think. So I have a lot of time to think about it and going back through the course and going back through the materials, realizing that I stepped across the line that I shouldn’t have. I wasn’t using SMART contact.
I was approaching it emotionally. I went to Vanessa and apologized, saying, “I’m sorry, this is not the man that I want to be, and you deserve better.” I let it go. I think I turned around and walked out of the room as soon as I was done apologizing. It was like I came here to apologize to you. I don’t need to say anything more because I was so scared I was going to be defensive.
I found out later that she had been watching, and she noticed. I think that made a significant impact.
Worth Every Penny
Dr. Joe:
That’s fantastic. So let me ask each of you individually here. So Ryan, if people out there saying, “I’m not sure that my spouse wants to be involved in saving my marriage or not,” would you recommend the Save My Marriage online course?
If so, if can you just kind of summarize what you’ve been saying so far?
Ryan:
Yes. I’m in the big group every day. So why? As a controlling person, I don’t like control freak because it sounds so negative, but it’s also kind of funny and cool. But as a control freak, it gives me a course, a plan of action. It’s a 10-week course. You’re separated. You have a lot of time to think, now here’s something that you can put those thoughts into.
So, instead of being scatterbrained and trying to find thousands upon thousands of resources online, here’s a course that’s tested and proven. If anything works, this will, and when you get through it, you have peace, knowing that you’re okay.
I don’t have to have my marriage survive to know that I’m going to be okay. If my marriage survives, it’s gravy on something that’s fantastic already. That’s what I would tell anybody in that situation.
We’re still together going on 27 years. I met with two divorce attorneys throughout this. Again, I’m a control freak. I wanted the education. One of them cracked a joke saying it literally is cheaper to keep her. Looking at the numbers, it’s a gamble, but everything in life is a risk. It’s a very inexpensive risk compared to what you stand to lose if you end up divorced.
Dr. Joe:
I’m very proud of the fact that we give a lot more value than we charge and whatever you pay us, we’re going to provide you with much, much more in return.
Vanessa, if I may ask you, as the reluctant spouse, is our terminology, was it worth it that he took the time to go through that and spend the money to do it? Was it worth it to you that he did the Save My Marriage course?
Vanessa:
Worth every penny.
It’s saved our marriage in more ways than ever. When we were working on just our relationship and stuff and decided to reconcile, I said, “I will not go back into the controlling relationship that we were in.” The Save My Marriage course really helped us learn what marriage is supposed to be. How communicating with each other is supposed to be handled.
It is a whole new marriage, the way it should have been when I thought it was a fairy tale. It’s still not a fairy tale, but he’s my best friend, and he’s my husband. I get to live the rest of my life with him, and that’s priceless. You can’t put a price on that.
Dr. Joe:
That’s awesome.
Ryan:
I see in the groups a lot of people saying, “I asked my spouse, and they said no to the workshop.” I asked Vanessa four times in a year to go to the workshop. Every time that I asked, it was there’s this workshop, what do you think about it? It was very short, concise, and crisp. When she said, “no,” I walked away, and I left it be. After a year, she finally approached me and said, “if you think that workshop will help, we should give it a try.”
So don’t be discouraged because your spouse said no. With regards to the workshops specifically, for me seeing the different personality styles was really helpful. It explained a lot.
Vanessa:
For me, it was “Have to, Ought to. Want to.” My answer was, “I want to.” I saw it and thought, “this is rigged.” I was really surprised that the answer ended up being, I want to save the marriage. I want to be in a relationship still.
Dr. Joe:
That’s the thing we do late in the first morning of the workshop. It brings on a commitment model that was developed years ago by Dr. Mike Johnson. It’s quite insightful for people to find out what’s inside their own heads. That’s why we have people complete that before the workshop starts. There’s no way to rig it before we said anything about it. Would you advise the workshops to couples as well?
Vanessa:
Absolutely. Our oldest son got married, and we want to send them just as newlyweds because it really does help you understand each other better. The workshop enables you to know how to communicate. That’s important even before you hit a crisis.
Dr. Joe:
We do have newly married couples, and sometimes engaged couples come through. I think that is a tremendous education for them.
If you can say whatever you want to, to those folks, what would you say?
Ryan:
Your marriage is worth it. It may seem expensive for some of the materials. If so, that’s okay. There’s a ton of free material out there on the Marriage Helper website, on the YouTube channel. If DIY is what you’re looking for, you can absolutely do it.
If you’re like me and you need that structure for the Save My Marriage course, I can’t recommend it enough. If your spouse is willing, the workshop was just fabulous. As Vanessa said, our oldest is married. We’ll be sending him shortly. Our middle son just got married, and we’re looking at sending him as well. It’s worth it.
Vanessa:
It’s worth it. Your marriage is definitely worth it. It’s not easy. It took me a long time just watching him and seeing the changes that he was learning through the Marriage Helper course as the one who was reluctant. I see that I’m like, “Hmm, this is something that I want to look into and see for myself.” It’s definitely worth it.
Dr. Joe:
Yeah. Excellent. Thank you for sharing your message with other people.
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